day two part 2 of the contemplative youth ministry blog tour. if this is the first time you are stopping by, welcome my name is gavin a youth pastor residing in nashville tennessee usa. if you are just jumping in on the tour be sure to check out the first stop @ jonny baker's book review & intro to the tour. bookmark for tomorrow with sarah dylan breuer for the next stop on the tour.
todays stop, my idea of a fun conversation with mark yaconelli:
me: mark, i've been looking forward to your book for some time as i've
incorporated contemplative principles to the youth ministries i've been
a part of. i even started up a manuscript on 'monastic youth ministry'
which i tabled some years ago. i am excited to see some similar
terminology and thumbed through the book. i've just starting out through the book since last weeks release. i look forward to completing
the book and the retreat next week here in nashville. for the blog tour
would you mind answering some questions for us?
me: in first chapter you begin talking about anxiety, which i think is
right on. in writing a new curriculum for the upperroom we asked
leaders to the the youth "wander" or "walk" with God. to this their
test report came back saying, "i'm not going to let my kids walk around
with God." it's become the joke of the development group. how can you see or best give counsel to what do you do with adults who are not contemplative or unwilling to see this as an important?
mark: One of the most radical aspects of Jesus is how much he trusts other people. He trusts human beings, everyday human beings, to reveal the presence of God in the world. He trusts us to care and love other people. He trusts us with the truth. Jesus doesn't lead a series of training sessions where he drills the disciples in theological belief statements. He trusts that by befriending people, by being transparent with people, by inviting people to share his mission of love they'll awaken to the presence and reality of God. The question is whether we can embody the same trust that Jesus embodies. Can we give young people the space and time to experience God directly, for themselves, without our constant coaching and mediation? Contemplation, traditionally, refers to "resting in God." It refers to being with God, the way a young person might sit and enjoy being with a friend, without any expectations, without need to prove or accomplish anything...just enjoying the presence of someone. If young people aren't given permission to "rest in God," if they aren't invited to sit in silence, to stroll through the woods, to rest and even fall asleep in the presence of God...then my fear is that their understanding of God will be lacking. God will be seen more as a taskmaster who needs serving then a companion who seeks are friendship (john 15:15).
me: for those adults who might be willing to embrace a contemplative youth ministry, how do you suggest a good starting point to bring them on board?
mark: The place to start is prayer. In many ways contemplative youth ministry is simply engaging the struggle to practice ministry as "unceasing prayer." The last thing jesus says to the disciples in the Gospel of Matthew is "Remember, I am with you always." Contemplative prayer is embodying the desire to remember God's presence. To remember that we're not alone. To stop and pay attention to the ministry that God is already doing and then lend a hand. To often we place ourselves at the center of ministry, when it is really God who is already doing the ministry. Our job is to simply attend to God, to stop and notice what God is doing within the chaos and activity of the youth group and then to follow, to respond, to help as God lead's us. In my work we've tried to help youth ministers create ministries in which listening to God was the central practice. All the programs, relationships and activities then flow from this listening. So the first step and the last step is simply making time and space to listen to God. Start making time to sit in prayer and silence, listening to God. Then do what comes natural.
me:
i found your 'failure as a youth minister' story to be very compelling
as i know i can, and am sure others, relate to that sentiment. so that
we don't get to that point i thought i'd ask a few questions about your
practices as a youth minister.
first off, are you currently working regularly with a church youth ministry? is no, do you miss working regularly with youth in a church?
mark: Currently, I'm not working within a church youth ministry. San Francisco Theological Seminary is in a severe budget crisis and had to let go of their support of the Youth Ministry and Spirituality Project. So two years ago we moved up to Southern, Oregon where some friends of mine provided a house for a sabbatical year of writing. We lived way up in Cascade mountains about 45 minutes from the nearest store. It was an experiment in family solitude (I did however volunteer once a week as the p.e. teacher at the local K-8 mountain school). It was lonely and I often went buggy for some kind of action. But it was also a year of healing and reflection and prayer. After that year of retreat we moved down the mountain into the town of Ashland. We're attending a Presbyterian church and I'm sure I'll soon be volunteering in the Sunday school and youth ministry program (my oldest boy turns 11 this year).
me: what contemplative exercises, classical or creative, do you gravitate to most?
mark: I think there's a myth within the world of spirituality that you find a spiritual practice and you stick to it for thirty years. I think our spiritual lives have seasons...and there are different spiritual practices for different periods in our life. When I first engaged contemplative prayer I used to do Ignatian contemplation...which is a form of imaginative contemplation where you place yourself in a biblical scene and watch, hear, feel, smell the scene unfold. I also used to do a lot of prayer with colors. Then for years I practiced lectio divina in the mornings and the Jesus prayer at night. After a difficult period in my life I found the only prayer that made sense was centering prayer...so for about four years I practiced centering prayer each morning with my co-workers in the project. I still practice centering prayer once or twice a week and find I'm still drawn to praying the Jesus prayer often throughout the day and before falling to sleep. If I was to be even more honest, my primary form of contemplative prayer is trying to be present and loving to my little two year old girl who is full of will and energy and emotion. She still wakes up most of the night and can be very turbulent during the day. So I find that just trying to be a loving parent to her often breaks down my own agendas, defenses and false self images and forces me to turn to God over and over saying, "Lord, have mercy!"
me: i hear you play some guitar, what's the praise song that you hate to play, but constantly finding yourself playing?
mark: I stopped playing praise songs a long time ago. In 1997 I started using prayer songs with young people. I just found most of the praise songs were theologically shallow and musically deadening. I wanted to give the young people music that the might return to after the reach 21. So I've used a lot of Stephen Iverson's music, Taize music, etc. When I've been with kids at larger events and the song leaders lead us in rockin' praise songs I enjoy it along with the kids, I sing'em out and dance around...but I just don't want the kids I serve to get a steady diet of this kind of thing. It's funny though, we have a little prayer service as a family and I find myself wanting to teach the kids the camp songs that I loved as a kid. Songs that most churches have long buried.
me: what is the best get to know you game that was ever created?
mark: I still use and love what's been called "Fruit Basket." Where everyone sits in a circle. There's one less chair then people. The extra person stands upfront and says something true about themselves (I have two eyes, I've never been to Disneyland, etc.). If the statement is also true for you, you get up and find another chair. I love pulling kids out of their chairs and stealing their seats. You have to let your sinful nature out once in awhile.
me: seeing that you are always listening to God and being shaped in thought & practice. if you were to write an epilogue to this book now, after writing it some time ago, what might that consist of?
mark: I would include a DVD of the these kids who went on a week-long contemplative retreat that I led in San Francisco. At the end of the retreat the kids wanted to do a Karaoke night. I wish you could see these kids who would sit intently in silent prayer every morning, doing the chicken dance and singing their lungs out to "I will survive." The images of these kids shaking their booties and singing off-key, filled with adolescent goofiness and fun says more about the contemplative life then any scented candle.
me: do you wonder if stephen iverson is moonlighting as danny elfman?
mark: Stephen Iverson is actually a furniture upholsterer who works out of his garage. The first retreat I led with him he only knew three prayer or even religious songs. He played his three songs at the first morning prayer service then he'd come to me and say "What's the them today?" I'd give him some ideas then he'd write three songs for the evening. He'd do this each day for a week. I remember one time leading a retreat I Pittsburgh and I was teaching the Jesus prayer. I said to Stephen, "I need a song that uses the lines from the Jesus prayer. He went back to his hotel room, wrote a song and came back a couple of hours later and played it. Stephen is a genius because he understands music as prayer instead of performance. I've only met a few people who understand this distinction. I do have to admit, however, that I don't listen to this kind of music at home. I prefer Ryan Adams, Son Volt, Iron and Wine, Lucinda Williams and the old Jazz Stuff like Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughn and Myles Davis--there's a lot of prayer music that doesn't, at first listen, seem like prayer.
thanks mark, be safe on your travels, hope to catch up when you are in nashville
shalom
-g
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