men & women in leadership of church

my last post got picked up by nashville is talking, which is always interesting. katherine made a point that the women were left out of the quotation mix. they were, that is just how the quote went and it was done in jest. i read no harm in not affirming any group or number of people.

i affirm the role of women in ministry and couldn't imagine ministry without them. many of my inspirational moments come from narratives involving the women of the bible (my prayer corner has an icon of the samaritan woman at the well, which is one of my favorite images).

interesting that katherine and i have this conversation as there is an ongoing controversy over another mark driscoll video about church planting where he expresses how the church needs "the man." i first viewed this via michael spencer check it out

i actually did read the first thoughts of this video from andrew. andrew mentions that bill hybels comes back with a "women have gifts too" statement that people cheered too. which, i think, they should after viewing this video segment.

apparently the hybels comment has blown up and people are taking aim on sides of men & women in ministry. todd picks up the conversation being stuck in the middle, the comments are interesting. mark even speaks back to the comment by hybels and his video now being "banned."

andrew follows up by sharing some perspective and dispelling some of the rumors (funny).

Comments

[Mary Beth]

Oh, dear. I'm sorry Katherine doesn't know you well enough to understand your celebration of women in ministry. Aren't you a RevGalBlogPal? Maybe you should point that out to her. Just thought I'd come by and show my support!

[rev mommy]

Can I just run away screaming? Why the repeated "men" and "him"? Am I missing something?

Damn!
(aside: I just LOVE the comment about how men want to know how to have sex with their wives once a day.)

After watching this, I decided I really don't like Mark Driscoll. Who IS this guy?

Here's a news flash: Maybe churches would grow if we got rid of the EGO that this video very thinly veils.

[Stacie]

This Mark Driscoll character is about as offensive as Fred Phelps and his bunch!

[gavin]

i don't know about that stacie, but i think he may do okay for his own congregation. when it comes across as the whole church i am rather disturbed.

getting rid of ego would be pretty good for the church.. but maybe not "the man" revmom

[Kat Coble]

This was my bad. I should have been more clear about realising that I was jumping off on a pet peeve in a comment that wasn't about my issue.

It's been that kind of day, and I'm sorry for taking it out on you and making my "point" on your back.

---

As to the video, I can't get it to play right now, so I'll have to comment on it when I can see it. But I wanted to apologise for coming off so strong at you.

[gavin]

katherine, we all know that kind of day. and i don't take your comment as a slam. sorta a shocker, one cause i never get picked up by nit (if i do it is the most random thing) so most folks are well aware where i come from & the sarcasm that ensues

[rev mommy]

I *think* we agree. It made for an interesting counterpoint to another conversation I was having today....

[Art]

Again, I could only watch part of it... I skimmed the rest. I see nothing good in this message - the militaristic imagery, the male centered language, the inward looking and judgemental ideas. I simply do not understand why this appeals to people.

[Thomas+]

Wow.

I would love to take some time and do a line by line examination of this guy's syncretism. Besides the obvious mysogny that this poor man suffers from (he literally values men more than women), he is part of a fascinating religion which apparently blends some kind of working class machismo with a form of Christian language. The fact that loving others is considered a small part of, and not the sum of, the "job description" of ANY Christian (let alone a church-planter) shows that he and I are simply not part of the same faith system.

Oh, and he comes across as a real jerk. Though, that's more of an emotional response from me.

[gavin]

for some reason thomas, i'm really interested to see you and mark go at it. &:~)

[kendra]

I know I'm coming from an entirely different camp... but I, a woman, actually liked the video!

I've met Mark a few times and am really impressed with his heart and passion for bringing people to Christ. I think it would be wise to use language that is less polarizing, but I also know that his attitude and communication style has been very effective in bringing people into a relationship with Christ. THAT is invaluable.

[Phil Wilson]

I think Driscoll is a tool. And I mean that in both the sense of a tool used by God and a jerk. It's completely possible to be both and Driscoll seems to be the embodiment of that.

I'm sure I wouldn't like to hang out or talk with him and I'm sure Driscoll doesn't give a rip what I think.

[kendra]

Thanks for your comment over on my blog.

I love your blog, Gavin! I disovered it a few weeks ago, and have really enjoyed it.

I think the woman/man thing is an interesting debate, but it behooves us to still be honoring when expressing our opinions about the matter.

For the record, I think you've done a good job of that!

[Craig Moore]

Gav
Driscoll is my kind of emerging pastor. He relates to the unchurced in Seattle and still remains orthodox and reformed. He's very cool.