don't get left behind on this video

i am no fan of rapture concepts (being that the word is never used in the bible, at least the ones i read) and i remember listening to one of the aforementioned songs by dctalk. which is probably why i find this video a must see. personally i find that left behind theory leaves out too much of the gospel and is a horrible scare tactic for manipulating people into taking on the faith in an unhealthy relationship. people have been powerfully impacted by it, but it isn't God's word or truth, which to each their own, just don't push it on me or expect me to teach it. the trinitarian message is one of love, service, prayer, sacrifice in relationship. not some end result.

did i just rant? just watch the video, check the linked videos for some backstory. thanks john.

Comments

[Wayne]

This brought back memories. I had forgotten that Larry Norman song and how it was one of the first "Christian Rock" songs that I had ever heard (hey, we're talking early 70's here). Thanks for introducing me to this fellow.

Pax,
Wayne

[Scott]

So how do you explain this to your youth... "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

[gavin]

hi scott, thanks for commenting and sharing. i figured someone would pull out some scripture to challenge my thoughts on this. i'd agree there are a number of scriptures that would lead one to believe such a thing, but if we only select scriptures and forget the body of work then we leave ourselves open to those 'contradictions' the critics of the faith so often throw out as a rebuttal blanket statement. something i try to keep from getting too with questioning and as much contextual framing as possible.

i think you visit here scott, but you don't have your email to talk personally to know if you are challenging me on my scripture interpretation of 1 thessalonians 4, or getting into a theology discussion about rapture.

assuming starting with the later, a theology discussion is always hard to have this way (blogging), try as we may there is always some discontinuity with the conversation. but, i'm up for trying as best we can.

assuming you are asking for an interpretation of 1 thes 4, without having done any research/further readings anything i gave you as an answer would be my own folk theology. so if a youth actually asked me, and wanted an immediate answer, about the scripture i'd first ask them what it means to them. that's just where i begin.

could you clarify your intent in asking and share what it means to you?

after that, i'd be more than happy to continue the conversation. shalom, -g

[Art]

Very thoughtful and understated for a "rant", Gavin, but I agree with you. In fact, I'd even go further to say that not only is the word "rapture" not in the Bible, the concept itself is not Biblical. Folks who want to proof-text and take scripture out of context can't be reasoned with.

Your measured response to "Scott" is a humbling example of restraint and Christian love in the face of theological belligerence. I would not have handled that so gracefully.

[Scott]

Gavin,

I don't understand your email comment since I did provide it when I left my previous comment.

I think what I mean is that the words "caught up" is where we do get the word rapture, since that is the word found in this verse in the Latin Vulgate.

I agree 100% that verses cannot be pulled out of context...

My comments really are the role of the devil's advocate. In a sense, you are dismissing the idea of rapture, yet you admit you don't know the meaning of this verse, which is the primary place the word comes from. Simply stating that the word isn't found in scripture is a little misleading. The word wasn't simply pulled out of thin air (no pun intended) but has existed for centuries.

[Winston Baccus]

I saw that video and was entertained by it as well.

I'm not theologian, but I have done some teaching of youth groups and my own Sunday school class in the area of eschatology. Here's one interpretation of that verse from my notes (it's kind of long):

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV
The Rapture
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

• ❑ What is Paul's Hope?
What is the hope that the Thessalonian Christians have that non-believers do not?

Paul says in Acts 24:15 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Paul says in Acts 26: 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our fathers that I am on trial today. 7This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. O king, it is because of this hope that the Jews are accusing me. 8Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?

Paul was put on trial for teaching the resurrection of the dead.

Hosea 13
14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave [1 Hebrew word Sheol]
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, [2] is your destruction?

Acts 24:15   having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

• ❑ What is the Resurrection That Paul is Expecting?
God removing all the dead saints from the old covenant out of Sheol and taking them to be in His presence.

Prior to Jesus, no one went to heaven. We were unworthy to stand in God's presence. Christ paid our debt for our sins.

John 3: 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.[1]

Prior to Jesus, all who died went to Sheol, a holding place.

Apostle's Creed - he descended into Hell. There are different theories.
This could be Christ going to Sheol.

So who are those who sleep in Jesus? - the dead saints

• ❑ When is this to take place?
I Thess4: 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

The rule of Bible reading: the Bible was written for you, not TO you.

Paul and the Thessalonians were clearly expecting a return of Christ in their lifetimes. Remember this was taken from a letter written to a specific church. Remember not to read it as if it were written to you.

Matthew 27 (right after the Crucifiction)
52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

1 Thessalonians 3
13May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

1 Thessalonians 5
23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul and the Thessalonians were clearly expecting Jesus return.

1 Thessalonians 1
10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Why would he say this to them if they weren't all expecting a return?

1 Thessalonians 2
19For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?

1 Thessalonians 3
13May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

1 Thessalonians 5
23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark 9
1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

the one, that before that generation passed away all these things would be fulfilled; another, that some standing there should not taste death till they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom; and third, that the Apostles should not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come. It is strange that these distinct limitations should not be regarded as a decisive proof that the Fall of Jerusalem was, in the fullest sense, the Second Advent of the Son of Man which was primarily contemplated by the earliest voices of prophecy"

• ❑ People see the Jesus and Paul's words as evidence that Christianity is a fraud

• ❑ Jesus coming on a cloud
This is a parallel to other passages in the Bible. Is symbolic. In Isaiah, it is written that God comes in on a cloud to judge Egypt. David said in Psalm 19 that the Lord defended him while riding on a cloud.

Does this mean the Lord literally rode in on a cloud? No, the Lord judged Egypt through the Assyrians. These were symbolic references.

• ❑ Being caught up in the air
If I am caught up in traffic, or I'm late to a meeting because I was caught up in what I was doing, that doesn't mean I went in an upward direction.

The word used for air is also used in the Bible for spritual realm.

In Ephesians 2 Paul writes
2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient

This is the same word used in Thessalonians.

Being caught up in the air, doesn't have to be a literally thing, it could mean a spiritual thing.

[gavin]

winston,.. was that straight off an outline you did as a youth talk? wow!

scott, not to make offense to you, but i have had a number of people who will drop by randomly to take me to task for something. usually those folks never come back and i am compelled to spend energy giving some response over the blog because they give me no ability to engage in conversation otherwise. since you say you have left your email before you are the person i potentially thought you were. now that we are on this conversation here, i figure we can let it ride.

i treated your question much in the way if i had a youth that comes to me randomly asking, "what does this mean?" my first inclination is always to ask what they think of it, or what troubles them about it? etc. this gives me some perspective over where they are to help guide as best i can, or to say "i don't know." which, i feel is a credible response, as long as we look further.

so, taking that i say "i don't know." which was more about all the things i mentioned above & the late hour of the day (being honest there) we look further.

the bulk of 1 thessalonians 4 & 5 speak clearly and at length about how one is to conduct themselves as a person of faith. just because we have nifty bibles that are broken down with numbers and most recently neat little bold face section headers doesn't mean we separate the overall intent of the author. this is more about how to conduct ones lives among those who are not people of faith than singling out what will happen to others and you.

in my quick movement through the scriptures i think of the parable of the harvest in that you don't pull the weeds because they will pull the good roots with it. symbolism for that holy living within the culture?

in thinking of the end times scriptures i've been more accustomed too i think of matthew 25 (the bridesmade's and their oil lamps). many people say you need to have all that stored up for when Jesus comes back. that when Jesus returns some win, some loose. the contradiction though comes in that Jesus died for all, but some of the bridesmaid's have oil to share, so why don't they give oil to the others? what's up with that, any reasonable person would do that, right? the one thing a reasonable person can't give away is a relationship. ie. someone says they wish they had a relationship like my wife and i, i wish they had one too, but i can't give it to them. it isn't possible. seems to me the scriptures come back to a living with God, conducting oneself a certain way.

"but what about in the end?" some will ask. honestly, for me, i'm not too concerned about it. as i figure if i am doing the things that God commands and Jesus teaches and act as i am compelled through the Holy Spirit then that end stuff will work it out. if there is a rapture then okay, if everyone goes to heaven, okay. the parable of the tenents hired throughout the day to work the field tell me that it is God's biz to figure out what each are due.

what are your thoughts?

[stacie]

My problem with the whole "rapture" concept is that too much time is spent worrying about the Lord's return, and the anticipation of what our "glory" is going to be when instead we should be worrying about the kingdom here on earth. Furthering the kingdom by living out Matthew 25 and feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and imprisoned, welcoming the stranger, and clothing the naked. And I agree with Art, you were very gracious in your replies.